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	<title>Comments for PassageMaker China</title>
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	<description>Third Party Assembly, Inspection &#38; Packaging</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 06 Oct 2011 12:26:33 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Despair is a sin by whit</title>
		<link>http://www.psschina.com/2011/09/despair-is-a-sin/#comment-2229</link>
		<dc:creator>whit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Oct 2011 12:26:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://psschina.com/?p=4574#comment-2229</guid>
		<description>Thanks Dan.  I hesitated to post those thoughts, as I am sure some would take it the wrong way, but I suppose that the nature of anything you write.  Glad you appreciated it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Dan.  I hesitated to post those thoughts, as I am sure some would take it the wrong way, but I suppose that the nature of anything you write.  Glad you appreciated it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Despair is a sin by Dan Welygan</title>
		<link>http://www.psschina.com/2011/09/despair-is-a-sin/#comment-2219</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Welygan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2011 15:51:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://psschina.com/?p=4574#comment-2219</guid>
		<description>Great, very timely post, Whit!

Assigning blame is often easier than taking responsibility; a culture shift in the US along the lines of the article you drew from might help things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great, very timely post, Whit!</p>
<p>Assigning blame is often easier than taking responsibility; a culture shift in the US along the lines of the article you drew from might help things.</p>
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		<title>Comment on China VAT: today&#8217;s perspective on the 2007 changes by admin</title>
		<link>http://www.psschina.com/2011/08/china-vat-todays-perspective-on-the-2007-changes/#comment-2208</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Sep 2011 04:25:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://psschina.com/?p=4534#comment-2208</guid>
		<description>Hi Anthony,
Thanks for your question. Just to clarify, there are two entities which are both named “manufacturer” in your question, but I assume you mean you want the “tube mfg to deliver to shampoo mfg and shampoo mfg to sell you FOB HK.” To get right to the point (which can be hard when talking Chinese VAT as you have learned already!), here are some key points

1.	 You are correct, only a China-based, fully licensed company (regardless if Chinese or overseas owned) with export rights and VAT registration can apply for a VAT rebate. 

2.	It is very difficult for a non-China based entity (like a foreign buyer based overseas) to purchase components from one Chinese factory and sell them to another Chinese factory for further processing because in order to get the VAT rebate at exporting, the processing factory needs to show their receipts of taxes paid on their inputs.  Only a China based entity meeting the criteria above can provide official receipts (called “fapiao”).  

3.	The normal practice in your situation is to negotiate a price at which the “Shampoo mfg” buys the tubes you have “spec-ed in” for the appointed tube manufacturer.  I would be like buying a toy from a toy factory and making sure it had a certain brand of battery included. The battery is “spec-ed in” as they say.  You desire to “spec-in” the tube.

Like I said, those were the main points in theory about how VAT should work. Now let me tell you the gritty realities.

Sounds pretty easy at first, just tell your shampoo shop to buy the tube from appointed tube supplier…but seldom, unfortunately, is it that easy.  Below I detail some of the common ways foreign buyers get screwed when attempting to do this. 

“not my fault”
a)	If anything goes wrong, say a leaky tube, both parties will blame the other one and you will find it hard to negotiate a solution. So good contracts, backed by robust factory QC and 3rd party inspection becomes essential.  

Hidden agendas

b)	The tube manufacturer current used is probably being used by the shampoo factory for a reason. Perhaps they have good quality and the shampoo shop is hesitant to change. Maybe they are accurate when they say “let’s not switch sub suppliers because while the tube you have found is less money, but it has poor quality and late delivery.”  But in my experience, it is probably true that the tube factory you found is better than what the shampoo factory is using because so often the factories pick sub-supplier based on family relationship, hidden commissions, proximity to production site and common linguistic/ethnicity   (Hunan bosses like to work w Hunan suppliers, Shanghai w Shangahai, Zhejiang with Zhejiang people…). 

Unfortunatly, the factory owners “2nd cousin who owes a tube shop in the next city over”, is very rarely the best option for tubes in terms of price, quality, lead time at a national level.  In short, you may find some friction if you try to force a new sub-supplier into your shampoo vendor. But it all comes down to money, and if you have the leverage the supplier will most likely make the adjustments for you. BUT that is not the end of the story.  

Collusion

c)	It is not uncommon for sub supplier to partner up with your supplier in ways unknown to you, such as to create kick backs amongst themselves, VAT rebate shenanigans and general collusion to mutually milk the foreign buyer.

It wouldn’t be fair for me to bring up the scary points above without offering some solutions to protect yourself.  
1.	Get a feel for your shampoo supplier’s willingness to use your tube supplier. If the move creates friction, you’ll need to evaluate the potential savings against the costs of playing hard ball and forcing the issue.
2.	Consider outsourcing the whole thing to a contract manufacturer who wants your assembly business and is not linked to any pre-determined APL (approved vendor list).  In other words, you tell the contract assembly partner what to assembly in the way you want it made using the materials you desire.  Critical point: 

make sure this partner is very honest (won’t get hidden payments from sub suppliers)

has clear pricing (no hidden costs) 

perhaps most important, they should offer a warranty on their work to avoid the “blame it on sub supplier” attitude.

and of course, they should know VAT inside and out, or you risk losing your full rebate.

3.	If you go with the current shampoo shop and spec-in the tubes, you may want to retain the services of an independent VAT specialist to do a supply chain review (in secret on your behalf) and ensure there is no funny business.

Sorry for the long answer, but I am tired of seeing foreign buyers taken advantage of by tricky VAT maneuvers and supplier scams and wanted to take this chance to give you and any other buyer that reads this post the real story from the inside of China.
If you found the above content of interest, know that I author one of the blogs and offer educational videos (all free) at www.ChinaSourcingInfo.org   Go to the search function and type in “VAT”, you will find one of the largest selections of article on the net about China VAT issues explained in plain-English. Plus there is plenty of other content on the site about China sourcing in addition to VAT.

Let me know how your project works out. I hope the points above get you going in the right direction to safe and affordable solution.
Wishing you successful sourcing!
Best Regards,
Mike Bellamy 
China Operations Director, PassageMaker Sourcing Solutions
Chairman of the Advisory Board, China Sourcing Information Center
Author,  The Essential Reference Guide to China Sourcing
Blogger, www.AnotherChinaBlog.com
LinkedIn Profile:  http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-bellamy-author-business-owner-volunteer-advisor/8/52a/389</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Anthony,<br />
Thanks for your question. Just to clarify, there are two entities which are both named “manufacturer” in your question, but I assume you mean you want the “tube mfg to deliver to shampoo mfg and shampoo mfg to sell you FOB HK.” To get right to the point (which can be hard when talking Chinese VAT as you have learned already!), here are some key points</p>
<p>1.	 You are correct, only a China-based, fully licensed company (regardless if Chinese or overseas owned) with export rights and VAT registration can apply for a VAT rebate. </p>
<p>2.	It is very difficult for a non-China based entity (like a foreign buyer based overseas) to purchase components from one Chinese factory and sell them to another Chinese factory for further processing because in order to get the VAT rebate at exporting, the processing factory needs to show their receipts of taxes paid on their inputs.  Only a China based entity meeting the criteria above can provide official receipts (called “fapiao”).  </p>
<p>3.	The normal practice in your situation is to negotiate a price at which the “Shampoo mfg” buys the tubes you have “spec-ed in” for the appointed tube manufacturer.  I would be like buying a toy from a toy factory and making sure it had a certain brand of battery included. The battery is “spec-ed in” as they say.  You desire to “spec-in” the tube.</p>
<p>Like I said, those were the main points in theory about how VAT should work. Now let me tell you the gritty realities.</p>
<p>Sounds pretty easy at first, just tell your shampoo shop to buy the tube from appointed tube supplier…but seldom, unfortunately, is it that easy.  Below I detail some of the common ways foreign buyers get screwed when attempting to do this. </p>
<p>“not my fault”<br />
a)	If anything goes wrong, say a leaky tube, both parties will blame the other one and you will find it hard to negotiate a solution. So good contracts, backed by robust factory QC and 3rd party inspection becomes essential.  </p>
<p>Hidden agendas</p>
<p>b)	The tube manufacturer current used is probably being used by the shampoo factory for a reason. Perhaps they have good quality and the shampoo shop is hesitant to change. Maybe they are accurate when they say “let’s not switch sub suppliers because while the tube you have found is less money, but it has poor quality and late delivery.”  But in my experience, it is probably true that the tube factory you found is better than what the shampoo factory is using because so often the factories pick sub-supplier based on family relationship, hidden commissions, proximity to production site and common linguistic/ethnicity   (Hunan bosses like to work w Hunan suppliers, Shanghai w Shangahai, Zhejiang with Zhejiang people…). </p>
<p>Unfortunatly, the factory owners “2nd cousin who owes a tube shop in the next city over”, is very rarely the best option for tubes in terms of price, quality, lead time at a national level.  In short, you may find some friction if you try to force a new sub-supplier into your shampoo vendor. But it all comes down to money, and if you have the leverage the supplier will most likely make the adjustments for you. BUT that is not the end of the story.  </p>
<p>Collusion</p>
<p>c)	It is not uncommon for sub supplier to partner up with your supplier in ways unknown to you, such as to create kick backs amongst themselves, VAT rebate shenanigans and general collusion to mutually milk the foreign buyer.</p>
<p>It wouldn’t be fair for me to bring up the scary points above without offering some solutions to protect yourself.<br />
1.	Get a feel for your shampoo supplier’s willingness to use your tube supplier. If the move creates friction, you’ll need to evaluate the potential savings against the costs of playing hard ball and forcing the issue.<br />
2.	Consider outsourcing the whole thing to a contract manufacturer who wants your assembly business and is not linked to any pre-determined APL (approved vendor list).  In other words, you tell the contract assembly partner what to assembly in the way you want it made using the materials you desire.  Critical point: </p>
<p>make sure this partner is very honest (won’t get hidden payments from sub suppliers)</p>
<p>has clear pricing (no hidden costs) </p>
<p>perhaps most important, they should offer a warranty on their work to avoid the “blame it on sub supplier” attitude.</p>
<p>and of course, they should know VAT inside and out, or you risk losing your full rebate.</p>
<p>3.	If you go with the current shampoo shop and spec-in the tubes, you may want to retain the services of an independent VAT specialist to do a supply chain review (in secret on your behalf) and ensure there is no funny business.</p>
<p>Sorry for the long answer, but I am tired of seeing foreign buyers taken advantage of by tricky VAT maneuvers and supplier scams and wanted to take this chance to give you and any other buyer that reads this post the real story from the inside of China.<br />
If you found the above content of interest, know that I author one of the blogs and offer educational videos (all free) at <a href="http://www.ChinaSourcingInfo.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.ChinaSourcingInfo.org</a>   Go to the search function and type in “VAT”, you will find one of the largest selections of article on the net about China VAT issues explained in plain-English. Plus there is plenty of other content on the site about China sourcing in addition to VAT.</p>
<p>Let me know how your project works out. I hope the points above get you going in the right direction to safe and affordable solution.<br />
Wishing you successful sourcing!<br />
Best Regards,<br />
Mike Bellamy<br />
China Operations Director, PassageMaker Sourcing Solutions<br />
Chairman of the Advisory Board, China Sourcing Information Center<br />
Author,  The Essential Reference Guide to China Sourcing<br />
Blogger, <a href="http://www.AnotherChinaBlog.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.AnotherChinaBlog.com</a><br />
LinkedIn Profile:  <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-bellamy-author-business-owner-volunteer-advisor/8/52a/389" rel="nofollow">http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-bellamy-author-business-owner-volunteer-advisor/8/52a/389</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on China VAT: today&#8217;s perspective on the 2007 changes by Anthony</title>
		<link>http://www.psschina.com/2011/08/china-vat-todays-perspective-on-the-2007-changes/#comment-2205</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Sep 2011 18:29:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://psschina.com/?p=4534#comment-2205</guid>
		<description>Hi Mike, 

I have a question for you but first a little background.  I work for a hotel amenities company and we generally purchase finished goods (i.e. shampoo, conditioner HTS 330510, 330590) from our manufacturer in Shenzhen.  However, we have started to move away from turnkey solutions and started sourcing components to send to our manufacturer for use in our products.  

For example, we have located a plastic tube manufacturer also in Shenzhen that offers a higher-quality tube at a lower price.  Our idea is to purchase the tube and send it to the manufacturer so that it can be converted to a finished good and then imported back to the US.  Our terms are FOB Hong Kong with our manufacturer.  Since the terms are FOB HK with our manufacturer, they took care of the VAT so we never really knew of its existence.  Since we would be purchasing the tube, I assume that we would have to pay the VAT, correct?  I can&#039;t seem to find a complete list of what items as assessed the VAT tax, but from the information from this website it would appear to be 17%.  It would also appear that there is a 15% tax rebate since the component we purchased (now part of the finished good) will be exported back to the US.  Our manufacturer is the exporter, therefore how would we be able to collect the rebate?  Does our company have to be a registered entity in China in order to collect the rebate?  

Any assistance you could provide would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Mike, </p>
<p>I have a question for you but first a little background.  I work for a hotel amenities company and we generally purchase finished goods (i.e. shampoo, conditioner HTS 330510, 330590) from our manufacturer in Shenzhen.  However, we have started to move away from turnkey solutions and started sourcing components to send to our manufacturer for use in our products.  </p>
<p>For example, we have located a plastic tube manufacturer also in Shenzhen that offers a higher-quality tube at a lower price.  Our idea is to purchase the tube and send it to the manufacturer so that it can be converted to a finished good and then imported back to the US.  Our terms are FOB Hong Kong with our manufacturer.  Since the terms are FOB HK with our manufacturer, they took care of the VAT so we never really knew of its existence.  Since we would be purchasing the tube, I assume that we would have to pay the VAT, correct?  I can&#8217;t seem to find a complete list of what items as assessed the VAT tax, but from the information from this website it would appear to be 17%.  It would also appear that there is a 15% tax rebate since the component we purchased (now part of the finished good) will be exported back to the US.  Our manufacturer is the exporter, therefore how would we be able to collect the rebate?  Does our company have to be a registered entity in China in order to collect the rebate?  </p>
<p>Any assistance you could provide would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Lions and tigers and bears&#8230; by Dan Welygan</title>
		<link>http://www.psschina.com/2011/08/lions-and-tigers-and-bears/#comment-2035</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Welygan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Aug 2011 06:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://psschina.com/?p=4528#comment-2035</guid>
		<description>PassageMaker&#039;s Brian picked up a T-shirt in Thaliand with the same name and logo on it years ago? I bet if you ask nicely he may model it for you. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PassageMaker&#8217;s Brian picked up a T-shirt in Thaliand with the same name and logo on it years ago? I bet if you ask nicely he may model it for you. <img src='http://www.psschina.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on How to select a supplier by admin</title>
		<link>http://www.psschina.com/2011/05/how-to-select-a-supplier/#comment-1992</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://psschina.com/?p=4330#comment-1992</guid>
		<description>Hi Asad,
Well said!
Buyers need to assume the worst and verify suppliers and service providers. Legit companies like PassageMaker welcome this close inspection because the more the client looks into our business the more trust and transparency they will find.

Thanks,
Mike 
Founder, PassageMaker</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Asad,<br />
Well said!<br />
Buyers need to assume the worst and verify suppliers and service providers. Legit companies like PassageMaker welcome this close inspection because the more the client looks into our business the more trust and transparency they will find.</p>
<p>Thanks,<br />
Mike<br />
Founder, PassageMaker</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>Comment on PassageMaker 2011 Trade Show &amp; Holiday Schedule by admin</title>
		<link>http://www.psschina.com/2011/01/passagemaker-2011-trade-show-schedule/#comment-1991</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://psschina.com/?p=4082#comment-1991</guid>
		<description>Hi Charles, glad you like it!
Thanks
Mike</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Charles, glad you like it!<br />
Thanks<br />
Mike</p>
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		<title>Comment on PassageMaker 2011 Trade Show &amp; Holiday Schedule by charles dugan</title>
		<link>http://www.psschina.com/2011/01/passagemaker-2011-trade-show-schedule/#comment-1988</link>
		<dc:creator>charles dugan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2011 16:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://psschina.com/?p=4082#comment-1988</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the calendar; we&#039;ve shared it with several clients over the last few months.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the calendar; we&#8217;ve shared it with several clients over the last few months.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How to select a supplier by Asad</title>
		<link>http://www.psschina.com/2011/05/how-to-select-a-supplier/#comment-1983</link>
		<dc:creator>Asad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jul 2011 22:27:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://psschina.com/?p=4330#comment-1983</guid>
		<description>One can never neglect the services we are getting from Global sources. I think the lack of experience &amp; expertise, lust for money for scrap is now become the aim of the middle mans because they are very badly affecting the reputation of China &amp; their manufacturers. 
There are several times i have been cheated by manufacturers or middle man(God Knows who are they belong to) but there is no response from the relevant organizations.
As we are altogether on the same forum, then genuine buyers &amp; sellers must make a mechanism where everyone can save their any remaining reputation &amp; market captured. The middle man or manufacturer that is not compliance enough to deal with international standard should be placed outside these authorized platforms like Global sources. 
Several cases have been reported like fraud because the buyers have to trust the seller. My question is why I should trust seller? If I am trusting him then seller must also trust buyer, 100% payment should not be made in advance. Why 100% risk will be bared by buyer only? I know L/C &amp; other options but I am targeting the order of low amount as well in order to get the non-competence member out from the board.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One can never neglect the services we are getting from Global sources. I think the lack of experience &amp; expertise, lust for money for scrap is now become the aim of the middle mans because they are very badly affecting the reputation of China &amp; their manufacturers.<br />
There are several times i have been cheated by manufacturers or middle man(God Knows who are they belong to) but there is no response from the relevant organizations.<br />
As we are altogether on the same forum, then genuine buyers &amp; sellers must make a mechanism where everyone can save their any remaining reputation &amp; market captured. The middle man or manufacturer that is not compliance enough to deal with international standard should be placed outside these authorized platforms like Global sources.<br />
Several cases have been reported like fraud because the buyers have to trust the seller. My question is why I should trust seller? If I am trusting him then seller must also trust buyer, 100% payment should not be made in advance. Why 100% risk will be bared by buyer only? I know L/C &amp; other options but I am targeting the order of low amount as well in order to get the non-competence member out from the board.</p>
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		<title>Comment on VAT scams exposed by pmstaff</title>
		<link>http://www.psschina.com/2011/05/vat-scams-exposed/#comment-1971</link>
		<dc:creator>pmstaff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jul 2011 01:34:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://psschina.com/?p=4334#comment-1971</guid>
		<description>Dear VL,
Thanks for your question. Please tell me your HS code, then I will be able to look up the VAT rebate rate for your specific product and will be in a better position to answer your question.

Also, what are the incoterms of your transaction with the seller? for example, &quot;FOB China port&quot; perhaps? This information will also help me better understand your situation.

I&#039;m glad to help.
Best Regards,
Mike</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear VL,<br />
Thanks for your question. Please tell me your HS code, then I will be able to look up the VAT rebate rate for your specific product and will be in a better position to answer your question.</p>
<p>Also, what are the incoterms of your transaction with the seller? for example, &#8220;FOB China port&#8221; perhaps? This information will also help me better understand your situation.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad to help.<br />
Best Regards,<br />
Mike</p>
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